welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Gallow and me gatri this
week in 1940 London was burning as it
would for 58 consecutive Nights by the
end of the German Blitz 8 months one
week and 3 Days Later huge parts of
Britain's industrial hotland had been
devastated as many as 200,000 British
people over overwhelmingly civilians
were dead or wounded whole streets were
wiped out shipyards factories Railway
infrastructure and even Parliament were
badly damaged and yet we never did
surrender when Mr Churchill told his
cabinet colleagues many shifting
uneasily in their chairs that not until
he and they lay there on the cabinet
room floor choking on their own blood
would they succumb he really meant it
one man Lord Alan Watson CBE has
specialized in this endlessly
fascinating subject and he has a new
book Churchill's legacy two speeches to
save the world and I'm glad to say he
joins us now on the Sputnik Lord Watson
welcome uh to you we'll come to your
book and the uh matters there in in a
moment but as this is the anniversary of
the beginning of the blitz on London
when londoners despite this
extraordinary bombardment by and large
kept a stiff upper lip kept calm carried
on and never dreamt of surrendering uh
to the uh Slaughter how much of that in
your view was due to the leadership of
Winston Churchill Churchill was decisive
uh I think one of the reasons he was so
important was that it was unimaginable
to him that Britain would surrender and
certainly Britain would never surrender
unless they were beaten to the ground
beaten to pulp and you quoted what he
said to his cabinet members many of whom
were not very happy to hear that
definitely shifted on very Shifty you
know putting on their tin hats but the
fact is uh he was absolutely confident
in the ability of the British people and
of Britain to resist and that's of
course what they did the other thing is
his rhetoric his speeches there's no
doubt that the speeches he made in 1940
had huge impact and they're of course
world famous and everybody knows them
fight on the beaches and fight in the
streets and all that and uh I think
people were having had no real
leadership not knowing what was actually
going to happen suddenly to hear the
this voice making it absolutely clear
that the determination was there I think
it was very important for people like me
or someone specifically like me of part
Irish
leftwing uh it's very difficult for
people to understand my admiration for
church young my stand is that whatever
he did before or for that matter
whatever he did
afterwards if not for that moment and
that stand by that
man well we'd be conducting this uh
discussion in German and the entire
history of the world would be completely
different yes and he knew that he was
standing at that Al point in history he
was well aware of that and you remember
he said that I feel that the whole of my
life has been a preparation for this
moment and so indeed it was so he knew
what the odds were it's not that he was
romantic about it I mean he'd looked
into the abyss he knew what could happen
but he was absolutely determined and I
think his ability to communicate the
speeches that he made and as you know
I've been writing about the speeches
after the second world war 194 46 uh
they play a huge role in the world and
unesco's now actually recognized these
speeches as being um Testaments of
Freedom uh equal historically if you
like to Magna carter and other things so
George's admiration for Churchill is
such that we have a large picture of
Churchill in our dining room wall that
is next to chear and and you in but um
it's unknown really amongst the left and
I just wonder why why do the left hate
him so much apart from him being a Tor I
don't know that the left really does
hate him so much I mean the fact is one
of his most stalwart allies in 1940 was
Ernie bevon the Trade union leader and
historically if you look at the debates
in that cabinet which were so decisive
in June 1940 the labor party's support
for what he was trying to do was
absolutely clear she's talking about
people to the left of er B I know that
but uh it's true that he had a very
checkered uh past but let's not uh uh
take up more time on that because I want
to turn to your book which is a terrific
uh volume it's here and in the United
States and it's dealing with just two
speeches after he had left office when
most people think well Churchill really
finished in 1945 there's a huge human
drama here I mean Churchill leaves potan
and um there it is you know there's
there's an apocryphal story which you
will allow me to tell I suppose that
when he left poab uh Marshall Stalin
said to him not to worry because as he
said I have never lost an
election so there we are that was true I
think that was true but um the fact is
he fell from this great height he
expressed it in terms of altitude he he
dropped from 38,000 ft to ground level
and his morale was absolutely Shattered
by his election defeat in
1945 which he brought partly on himself
I mean he did not fight a good election
campaign but the fact is he was out and
he said to Lord Moran who was his doctor
it would be better that I were dead and
he also said the Flies are gathering on
the corpse he was his morale was
shattered and then this extraordinary
thing happens he's sitting in Chartwell
and his a de comp puts a letter in front
of him from a college that nobody
actually had heard of Westminster
College Fulton Missouri and the bottom
of the letter it invites him to go there
get an honorary degree make a speech and
down the bottom in handwriting from the
new president of the United States
Truman is this sentence which says this
is a fine College in my home state if
you come I will introduce you and
Churchill immediately thinks that means
18 hours in a train with the new
president of the United States
so of course he accepts and the speech
is made and it is highly dramatic and
what Churchill was saying in the Fulton
speech it's now known as the Iron
Curtain Speech but if you really look at
the speech he's actually saying a very
interesting thing he's saying peace is
possible but peace has to be in Europe
peace has to be based on a recognition
of equality and a respect
and that means strength because the
Russians respect strength and indeed
they do they have it and they always
have and uh so what he was arguing was
that America and Britain ought to make
it clear to the Soviet Union that they
had a position and they were going to
stand on it and if there was any uh
intrusion into Western Europe there
would be real trouble and at that point
of course the United States had a
nuclear Monopoly didn't last very long
but they had it and so that's what he
was proposing the the speech was hugely
controversial in America the roselt
family didn't like it at all and when
Winston left New York there were 4,000
demonstrators saying no war Winston you
know things like I would have been one
of those you would have been there with
your P I have absolutely no doubt but
anyway he sails away and
um the drama then really unfolds it's
extraordinary inside the Tory party
there were people who really wanted him
out and Lord Salsbury was one of them
and of course Anthony Eden was desperate
to get into number 10 you see and they
were going to give him a dinner party
and say well Winston great speech and
all that but you know what you really
ought to do is make speeches like that
not lead the opposition in Parliament
which is boring really and you know
Anthony's here and he's very happy to
take over and of course this afternoon
this afternoon and Winston's the sap has
risen you see and uh he the controversy
has sparked him and he's already said
the ship is delayed by 4 hours going
into Southampton and by then he's
already said to the media I am going to
fight the next election you see and I
will get aty out of Downing Street wow
but then he makes he makes the second
speech six months later in zerck
Switzerland and what I think I hope is
an important contribution to the history
out of what I've written is that I've
made the connection between these two
speeches Fulton Missouri and zir now why
when Winston was in the United States to
make the first speech he had a second
task which the British government had
given him and they were saying to him
for God's sake Winston persuade the
Americans to renew Len lease were broke
we bust the damage that you described at
the beginning we've got to restore it
they must give us some money they must
lend us money and uh he got nowhere with
that absolutely nowhere despite all his
networking on the hill and everything
else they all said absolutely not
and I think because he was half American
he got what the Europeans would have to
do if they were going to untap American
generosity and that was they had to
actually get their act together
themselves so in Zur he gets up and he
says it's wonderful you know he's got
the solemn Swiss audience in front of
him and he says I shall startle
you we have got to have a kind of United
States of Europe and it has to be led by
a partnership between France and German
September 1946 theber trials going on
can you imagine amazing the go goes
apoplectic apoplectic it's just as
controversial as the first speech but
the truth is that in a way you can say
that these two speeches kickstarted a
process and I've argued that one of
which leads in effect to Nato and the
Western Alliance but the other leads
perhaps more significantly in the end
historically to the col and Steel
Community to the Marshall Plan and to
all of that so these are speeches Tove
the world to the indeed to the European
Union I'll tell you what I would be a
taker for the United States of Europe I
campaigned against the European Union
there' be a taker for a Democratic
elected United States me too we both do
that Lord Watson you're a fascinating
man it's a fascinating book the very
best of luck with it and thanks for
coming on the SP much coming up next
when Adam and Eve ate the apple against
instructions we all know what happened
next when Ireland took just a little
nibble at the Apple well don't miss
it welcome back to Sputnik the
right-wing government in Ireland is in a
real pickle over Apple sweetheart tax
arrangements made with the giant
multinational Apple Corporation have
been ruled by the European Commission to
be illegal state aid and have ordered
the Sovereign government in Dublin to
recover a staggering 13 billion E from
Apple Plus another €6 billion EUR in
interest it is just one of the average
minority government's many crisis and
may yet bring it down joining us now is
the General Secretary of the connley
association Michael carty Michael
welcome on board James connley after
whom you're Association is named would
be turning in his grave wouldn't he at
the idea uh that the Irish people were
led by a government that said to a giant
multinational corporation actually we
don't want your tax money and we're
going to fight anybody who tries to make
us take it I suppose from James Conley's
perspective I think what would have
riled him more would be having an
external force force outside of Ireland
not accountable to any of the taxpayers
in Ireland um telling the Irish
government how it should run its
taxation policy is not a competency of
the European Union the European
commission has has no place in telling
uh the Irish government to do that and
this essentially is a power grab by
technocrats in Brussels it's happening
in a wider wider political context uh
post brexit context for example but I
think from connell's politics that
external interference in the Affairs of
Ireland would have been something that
angered him more well he would curse
both these things would he obviously
he'd curs the fact that Ireland was so
Craven towards a multinational
corporation that it allowed them to
operate on its soil and didn't Levy a
proper rate of tax on them and as you've
just said denounce the
supranational uh dictating uh by the
European Union we're I mean I'm we are
no big fans obviously of Brussels either
but but this is in fact they're quite
right on this position right it it is
really ridiculous is a paradox isn't it
Michael I mean we we campaign to leave
the European Union but on this the
European Union is right and The
Sovereign government is wrong it's quite
a difficult question um in that look 19
billion euros the 13 billion plus the
interest would obviously be of enormous
value to the people of Ireland
especially when they've been Laden with
64 billion of uh banking debt by the
European Union uh they've gone through a
massive a project but people shouldn't
be misled into thinking that this 19
billion is going to appear in the form
of new hospitals or services that have
being CAU being rein could if the Irish
people elected a government that was of
that mind it could but I and the cony
Association would defend the right of
the Irish government to appeal against a
decision of the European commission to
in an area where the European commission
doesn't have the competency to do that
with all respect to you I'm not sure
you're right about that the the the
European commission is right that Apple
was acting both as a resident and a
non-resident uh participant in uh the
economy in Ireland so I don't think any
appeal will be successful my
understanding and this is just from
having a looked at briefing papers
produced by De octus in Dublin is that
the Irish government recognized that
there was a mismatch in the taxation
arrangements for Apple between its tax
status in America and in Ireland which
led the company to be stateless you know
which which is not even a flag of
convenience no it's it's something
that's essentially they didn't even
treat Ireland like Liberia used to be
treated by the owners of tankers that's
it it's an incredible arrangement and
something any transnational Monopoly
would would seek an arrangement like
that now Irish government claims have
addressed that in legislative terms to
ensure it won't happen again but I think
the key issue is and it's a difficult
one as I say because of the question of
of this money that people think is going
to sort of rain down on top of them and
Maryland now you have the fact that the
decision's been made abroad where there
hasn't been uh the European commission
doesn't have a competency for taxation
okay now it desires one and it pushes
for one it doesn't have a competency for
that also the fact that the the profits
which this taxation supposedly Ares from
are derived from other operations and in
the commission ruling it says that other
countries can can claim their portion of
those taxes that including America other
uh EU countries and US countries so when
it isn't actually profit generated in
Ireland and but stray from abroad well
uh you you know that Apple has something
like 300 billion euros in the bank never
mind its assets as a whole they could
pay this money without noticing a in
their bank statement for me and I have
zero Sympathy for the Apple corporation
i' I'd like to make that clear C you V
absolutely no sympathy for them but the
issue here for me as as an Irish man as
a Democrat isign is who decides what
levels of tax are paid in Ireland and
that should be the Irish people well of
course it it Ireland is responsible for
its own tax rate but the commission has
ruled that this was in effect state aid
uh that transfer pricing was in play and
that basically the company was running
rings around all taxation uh
jurisdictions and with the connivance of
a right-wing government in Ireland but
you're right to say you're right to
point to this uh very weird dichotomy
that you the Conley Association as an
anti- capitalist uh organization in your
bones Conley said that running a green
flag over up over Dublin Castle uh
without changing anything else would be
no Independence at all what we've got is
a green flag with a green flag
government that actually acts as a slave
to the to the multinational corporations
there's a huge difficulty with with how
Ireland is governed and the the nature
of the government there at the moment
now I as as I say I I would never be uh
and the cony Association wouldn't be in
the position of living in Britain and
telling people in Ireland what type of
government they should elect be it
leftwing or rightwing but the fact of
the matter is the Irish State at the
moment
is quite dependent on foreign direct
investment to the point of almost of of
no return without radical change and
that comes about from Ireland's Colonial
history it comes out about because of
the partition of of the island it' be
very difficult to establish for example
a protectionist economic model when you
have citizens living in an occupied
territory who would effectively be
punished by it and um Now by membership
of the European Union which of course
Ireland was cohered into being a member
of through the Anglo Irish Free Trade
Agreement and a secret Clause later
acknowledged with aish t-shock that
forced Ireland into the common market
and Ireland then comes into a position
where it's entered a second active Union
both active unions have destroyed what
little industry the country had and is
is now in a position where even even to
to beg for foreign direct investment
that you have an outside force again
saying to it look you're not allowed to
do it uh your particular way well what's
the uh impact of all of this uh going to
be on the Irish political scene uh it's
a minority government uh a very
unpopular one everything from water
pricing to the collapse of the National
Health Service due to the austerity
imposed by the European Union uh
insisted upon by the European Union
after the crash and so on is the
government going to survive and uh is
there an alternative on offer for the
Irish people like another IR exit
following the British brexit well I
think IR exit as it's as it's becoming
known um first time I've heard that is
is really the only the only plausible
option available now you have a
situation where at the moment even
before article 50 has been invoked here
and from the association we believe it
should be as soon as possible but you
have a situation where Ireland the Irish
State the south is within the uro Zone
it does 2third of its trade out the Euro
zone so it does 2/3 of this trade with a
currency that uh it it has no influence
over the value of when Britain leaves it
leaves the European Union it'll do
two-thirds of its trade outside of the
European Union it's the only country in
that situation Ireland is now a net
contributor to the EU so any money
Ireland receives back is only Irish
money being recycled through Brussels we
pay for a few technocrats along the way
um we lose billions in fishing
industries so major political issues in
Ireland that that there Mass
mobilization around at the moment
opposition to water charges opposition
to bin charges um The Campaign against
homelessness to build social housing all
of these things are restricted if not
dictated by European Union directives
Mass surveillance of email Irish
parliamentarians having to run private
member bills past the European Central
Bank to check their economic competence
before they put to the Irish Parliament
all of these issues are a you is the
elephant the room and when anything to
do with Irish politics has been
discussed has going to have massive
implications through the peace process
brexit will if not if it isn't followed
by our exit huge implications this would
paradoxically of course 100 years on
from Eastern
196 bring Ireland back uh closer to
Britain uh that's another of the the
many strange dichotomies in this story
it's it's extremely strange in that
we've had the entire na celebrating uh
1916 and the Centenary of the
Proclamation of the Irish Republic
talking about unfettered control of
Irish Destinies the right of the people
of Ireland to the ownership of of
Ireland and yet an issue like the
European Union isn't being discussed
when we look at um say future
anglo-irish relations in the context of
post brexit you have a situation where
following the end of the Cold War you
had the space created where the British
military didn't need to control Northern
Ireland as Atlantic route to Europe you
had the peace process to Good Friday
agreement follow on from that now if you
have a situation where Northern Ireland
remains in the UK but outside of the EU
the south is in the EU in an ever
increasing common security and defense
policy Britain there will certainly be
interests in Britain in maintaining a
foothold in Ireland for for security
reasons it's a the
amount all the different levels to this
debate now it's as I say incredibly
complex but for Ireland economically
politically and in terms of Irish
unification the only option is to leave
the European Union the European union
now is one of the most strong Fetters to
Irish unity and it's an incredible thing
when that that is rarely discussed in in
relation to the is I'll raise a glass of
water to that Michael Cy of the Conley
Association thank you very much indeed
for joining
us
and now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media what's rattling G so our show on
Churchill uh sted up quite a debate on
social media we had as we expected lots
of left people leftwing people really
really hating him just like our glass
galok Singh he says up till their deaths
My dundonian World War I veteran
grandparents would spit At The Mention
Of Churchill's name well and D
especially because he was the MP there
and he got thrown out his car was
overturned and he promised to see the
grass grow on the streets of dundi so
he's HED there on um Ireland and apple
David Beckham 4M says Ireland gave of
oil rights and agreed with apple 500 tax
in every million pound Ireland is going
backwards although as was explained uh
we we are here in a a gigantic Paradox
the Europe
is correct to say that allowing these
kind of sweetheart deals will merely
create a race to the bottom and then
eventually a race out of the European
Union by these companies alog together
at the same time did Ireland rise and
fight for independence in order to be
dictated to not by London but by
Brussels and that's all the tweets for
today which alas means that's the end of
the show but you can stay in touch with
us on social media on Twitter at rtor
Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik on Russia
today it's goodbye from me gri and from
me George Galloway it's been
[Music]
marvelous